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While the pictures are good and the redesigns are good, I have to admit that fully clothing Vampirella removes all purpose from the character altogether. Also, what’s wrong with bare arms for god’s sake? Nobody feels the need to cover Wolverine’s exaggerated, almost fetishized biceps. Good thing it’s not the redesign companies would actually use.
Before you ask – I’m a woman and I like my comic book heroines half-dressed.
Fair points – makes me wonder what “the purpose” of Vampirella is though. To titillate? To be a horror hostess? I’m fairly certain the Vampirella above could seduce or slay whoever she wished.
With or without all the skin, yup.
More skin coverage equals better protection, including one’s arms. And give that the artist is trying to make a statement (look how cool these characters look, even with only their faces showing), it makes sense that he’d choose to cover their arms. I don’t think it’s an indication that he disapproves of arms being on display. :-)
Why not their necks and faces then? Clothes for comic book characters are purely aesthetic. Unless they are wearing super powered or magically imbued armor or apparel it’s all worthless when you are getting blasted by bolts of energy, sprayed with acid, skidding across concrete, or being generally assaulted in the way normal cloth can’t do anything but disintegrate.
I like a few of these a lot, particularly Vampirella and Zatanna, but most fail to find the balance between looking attractive and being sensibly dressed.
Because wearing a mask and cowl and stuff that covers your neck and face for protective reasons can be more of hindrance than help sometimes. Ask any actor who dressed up as Batman or any one who has worn soldier outfits. Its hard to hear, hard to move your head, and hard react when wearing those things. As for their clothes being aesthetic, that’s completely not true. Yes, there are things that can destroy most of their clothes, but particularly for the non Kryptonians, it still offers protection. Why do you think motorcycle drivers wear leather jackets. Its not to… Read more »
leather is also hard to move in, if you have ever worn a motorcycle jacket you would see that the range of motion is very limited.
Without knowing anything about Vampirella (apart from what she looks like), I like the “fully clothed” design. It nicely evokes the Victorian roots of vampire lore, and kind of reminds me of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen’s version of Mina Harker.
I don’t understand why Vampirella’s purpose is removed by being fully clothed. She has a mesmeric stare. She could wear whatever she wanted and would be able to have any effect on anybody she wanted.
It’s not her clothes that give her powers. It’s her super human abilities.
Because as a murderous vampire she rejects the status quo. Sexuality is and has always been an aspect of that. Think of the 60s.
If she rejected the status quo then she should be completely covered up with glasses, a sweatshirt, and flats. The status quo of a female vampire in to be as revealing as possible.
Her purpose isn’t to be barely dressed.
But I do see the connection to the 60s. That’s in character.
yeah I’m not sure what the poster meant by that. Anyone reading the current Vampirella comic knows she wears pants 90% of the time.
Are you kidding? Vampirella is the coolest one here! Spot-on :D
There is an actual reason for Supergirl and Power Girl’s costumes. They are powered by the sun, and the more exposed skin, the faster they heal and the stronger they are. While i get the whole “Lets not objectify woman,” angle and i love that Wonder Woman has armour, you have to applaud the logic behind the Kryptonian costumes. The real question is, why doesn’t Super Man show more skin?
riiiiiight, and superman/boy do not have big holes in their costumes exposing their chests because…?
… So you didn’t read the last sentence of the guy you’re responding to huh?
Y reed wen u cen jus kritisize n reespawnd lik a chiuld?
But seriously, don’t hold internet-posters to such a high standard. You’ll always be disappointed.
If that was true they would have exposed arms.
You could hand-wave the sun thing pretty easy by saying the costume is translucent to UV or to whatever specific frequencies they need.
You could even say the dark areas absorb solar energy and convert a large percentage of it to the precise frequencies they need. Thus increasing their overall solar/skin efficiency.
“There is an actual reason for Supergirl and Power Girl’s costumes.”
Sigh…
It’s actually the Wonder Woman outfit that is the only one I didn’t like, personally. The armoured chestplate design is great, but then I find myself wondering why you’d partner it with khakis – following the design through the leg, possibly with either an athletic legging, or even a fully-armoured outfit that almost turned her into and unmasked version of Iron Woman would surely give a better result.
Well, if comic book heroines looked like that, I might actually read some comics.
It’s a shame that you’d let something as superficial as what a woman chooses to wear stop you from reading very engaging and well crafted stories.
I’m going to take this as terrific sarcasm, because the stories are not very engaging and not very well crafted, most of the time.
Most of the time. My point is, I’m not going to miss a gem because I’m told I’m not supposed to like comic books because I’m a woman. I’m not going to miss a form of entertainment that I enjoy because I’m supposed to be too offended by a woman’s bare legs. Not all the comics I read have award winning stories. But they have fun stories. Stories that I want to wind down after a long day reading. I find it annoying to be told that the stories aren’t for me just because the art isn’t specifically directed at… Read more »
It’s almost like authors need to ATTRACT female readers by providing elements that are appealing to them, rather than projecting an attitude of “shut up, stop complaining, and take what you get, lowly women!”
I am a female reader. I’m attracted to comic books based on the story. Women don’t need a hand out from any publisher trying to extend an olive branch by putting female characters in ridiculously over thought sacks of an outfit. I’ve never felt like I was being told to “take what I get”. And I don’t think comics books are lacking in appealing elements for females. I don’t care what my heroine wears. I care what she does and what she says.
Realistically, the primary reason all these superheroines have been depicted in revealing/skin tight clothing is because the comic book market is primarily driven by male readers and putting the women in skimpy clothing is a marketing ploy. Now, I like comic books, and that doesn’t stop me from reading them. But if putting them in skimpy clothing to attract male readers is OK, I don’t see why putting them in more realistic clothing in order to attract female readers isn’t equally OK. Comic books are visually driven – that’s why they’re comic books and not novels – so to self-righteously… Read more »
Absolutely! Everything in entertainment is marketing driven. I work in that industry. It’s my job to find out what demographic is going to like which things. How do we find an audience for this movie? etc etc. That does’t mean that as a female reader I have to be offended by what I see. In my daily life I see women wearing revealing clothing and it isn’t for marketing, it isn’t for men. And it’s okay. I think that it is absolutely okay for comic books to put women in everyday clothing. I think it’s okay for them to put… Read more »
To me the problem with this is that a lot of the outfits they put women in really aren’t practical – we’re supposed to believe that the character is smart and powerful when she’s wearing heels that would snap if you looked at them crosswise and a top her boobs would fall out of the second she turns upside-down. It’s like the chainmail bikini issue – it may be pretty but the person who wears it into battle is an idiot. If you want to be mobile and stealthy in an urban environment, you wear clothes that cover your skin.… Read more »
I never spoke to the anatomy of the characters. That’s not the issue I was discussing. Nor about the posing of women. If you want to be mobile and stealthy in an urban environment you don’t wear neon colours. As a superhero with super strength, why do they need to think so much about protection. If protection was a huge issue in comics EVERYBODY would be wearing some SERIOUS armour. But it’s not, so no one does. When I went scuba diving my wet suit was pretty skin tight and it kept me really warm. I don’t propose to know… Read more »
I think what you’re missing is how the prevalence of women portrayed as eye candy for men can put women off comics altogether. We’re not talking about isolated cases of a couple of characters here and there. We’re talking about an industry in which female characters in normal clothing are the exception, and ridiculous costumes and cheesecake poses are the norm.
There’s not a lot of normal clothing in comic books. No one would really wear any of the things that superheroes wear in their daily lives. It would be silly. You’d be branded as crazy. The only time normal clothes are presented are when characters are completely out of costume or if we’re referring to secondary characters. Do you really have that much of a problem with jumpsuits? It seems pretty ridiculous to me. Seems more like you have an issue with the way women in comics are posed. I have an issue with that too, I’m just not addressing… Read more »
But it is offensive to know that that is the image of women that men who read comic books are being fed.
Sure, it’s clear that a lot of women find those images offensive. Most of the dramaticallyover sexualized images can be offensive. There are plenty of inappropriate images out there that are far beyond inappropriate and I don’t feel it comnes close to what any of the above heroes wear. I don’t think a woman in a bathing suit is offensive. Psylock essentially wears a bathing suit. I don’t have a problem with that. Storm, though clothed from head to toe, is wearing a skin tight outfit. I’m fine with that as well. Men who read comics are also being fed… Read more »
Psylocke was costumed as she was not to show how powerful and strong she is, but purely to show her butt. I’m amazed that you don’t recognize that as problematic.
The way men act in female targeted romance stories is just as offensive to us men, yet we never complain about it. Go fight some actual female suppression and leave us alone with our entertainment.
Besides, you’re acting like men suddenly all think women should dress scantly from reading comics. Reality shows that it’s football players and the like that actually degrade women in real life and demand of them to wear skimpy things, not comic book nerds.
Rune, I’d been to a convention where a Vampirella cosplayer got more attention from the men in attendance than Gail Simone and Renee Witterstaetter combined. I don’t know what universe you’re in, but there is still a great deal of sexism in comics.
And guess what? Comics are not “your” entertainment. If you want the industry to survive, you’re going to have to share it with a female audience.
What about the females who like it as is?
How many of them are there?
Yeah, no one ever mentions how ridiculously romance novels portray men. Their shirts are always off or half off, and there’s no ‘average’ looking dudes… what’s up with that!?!
Oh right… those books contain fantasy material primarily for women, and it’s ok with me whatever fantasies they have, realistic or otherwise.
I’ve seen plenty of feminist critiques of of the sexism within traditional romance novels (including the stereotypical men and women on the front cover), including the newer resurgences of their ilk, Twilight and 50 Shades. Reading these novels increases traditional, sexist views in women who read them (there are even studies on this topic). But you’ve also go to realize that, as valid as those critiques are, there is a vital difference. Romance novels are basically porn. Comics (most comics) are not. Porn standards (as problematic as they often are) should not be the standards of general lit or comics… Read more »
Oh my god, you’re so right! How could I never have seen it before? How could I have thought that the wage gap, increasing restrictions on women’s bodies and access to basic healthcare, rampant rape and sexual harassment, domestic abuse, lack of representation in government, social enforcement of impossible beauty standards, and constant hypersexualization in all mainstream media were serious issues when the portrayal of men in romance novels makes some dudes feel weird??? How can I forgive myself for believing that actual prejudice perpetuated by deeply entrenched systems of oppression could compare with dudes feelings skeeved out by $5… Read more »
oh. So you are saying that with “the wage gap, increasing restrictions on women’s bodies and access to basic healthcare, rampant rape and sexual harassment, domestic abuse, lack of representation in government, social enforcement of impossible beauty standards, and constant hypersexualization in all mainstream media” we should … instead focus on comics, and how what people see in comic books dictates how they act/feel/etc in real life. Yeah. I’d say the time would be much better spent trying to fix the top problems rather than spending time being sarcastic to nobody important in a topic on what imaginary people wear….… Read more »
Hello, Frivalue, and welcome to Derailing 101! The topic of today’s class will be what I like to call “The Fallacy of the Greater Evil.” There are three major problems with your argument. 1) I DO spent my time working to fix some of those problems. We are – both individually and as a species – capable of devoting out attentions to more than one activity at a time. It’s untrue, not to mention kind of ridiculous, to suggest that I am INCAPABLE of caring about any of those other problems simply because I’ve spent an hour or two having… Read more »
Hello, Frivalue, and welcome to Derailing 101! The topic of today’s class will be what I like to call “The Fallacy of the Greater Evil.” There are three major problems with your argument. 1) I DO spent my time working to fix some of those problems. We are – both individually and as a species – capable of devoting out attentions to more than one activity at a time. It’s untrue, not to mention kind of ridiculous, to suggest that I am INCAPABLE of caring about any of those other problems simply because I’ve spent an hour or two having… Read more »
Oh c’mon. Rune didn’t say anything about all of those issues. By bringing this up this way, you’re attaching an awful lot to what some fictional characters are wearing.
I apologize for derailing the conversation with excessive sarcasm. My bad. I must have forgotten to take my anti-sass pills that morning.
I apologize for disrupting the discussion with excessive sarcasm. My bad. I must have forgotten to take my anti-sass pills that morning.
Objectification of women as entertainment for men is oppression (suppression is something else…). This is the same line I get from MRAs defending sex tourism and implying that male sexuality is naturally predatory and any critique of the harm it causes is oppressive to men. This should be offensive to decent men. Patriarchal ideas about men and women are harmful to both men and women. This definitely includes some popular types of romance novels, but not all women like those novels. Some of us prefer comics, see more worth keeping in comics and hero tales and would like those stories… Read more »
Sorry, but comic books aren’t just your entertainment.
You do care enough to oppose “overthought sacks of an outfit,” though.
I’m not going to refuse a story because the character is wearing a bag though. That’s the difference. And if you understood my comment it’s that I’m offended by the notion that as “a favour to women”, a female character can’t be fashionable or she can’t have skin showing. My comment is about being restricted to those kinds of things. As a woman, I should be able to wear what I want without any judgement passed. If someone if thinking that they need to please me as a woman by covering my heroes in many layers and making sure I’m… Read more »
Comics are the only books you really should judge by the cover; you know what you’re getting by what’s on the front. Hence, too many women are too insulted to read them, no matter how many *others* find the stories “very engaging & well crafted”
I don’t believe you know what you’re getting based off the cover. I’ve hated many covers but enjoyed the contents. And to look at a cover with a scantily clad women or a woman in a spandex suit and shrug it off as a terrible story is the same as looking at a beautiful woman and immediately judging her as stupid.
And the “others” who enjoy the stories are not exclusively male.
The heroine doesn’t choose to wear it. The male author chooses to put her in it. There’s a difference.
Obviously, no character in any form of fiction makes real choices. If that were the case, Wolverine would have a much different outfit. No Canadian lumberjack I know would be caught dead in that train wreck. In the real world, women chose to wear skin tight or revealing clothes every day. Suspending our disbelief, if the fictional world the heroines live in were real, it would be Betsy’s –choice- to wear that purple body suit. I’m not going to demonize all male artists for every over sexualized depiction of a character because that is grossly unfair. There are many female… Read more »
What I read:
“AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY AGENCY IT’S OK IF WE PRETEND IT’S ALL AGENCY THE CULTURE HAS NO EFFECT ON ANYONE”
Right on, dude.
It seems like you missed her point. Sorry you can’t read hombre.
But they put wolverine in that outfit for men, too. It’s not like they dress him like that for the ladies, it’s to make you want to be that burly tough dude, to want to read his adventures and imagine it’s you. They hardly dress women so you can also imagine “conquering” them. It’s all for the men, so to be all like “they scantily dress, men, too!” it’s because they’re showing you all that testosterone you should envy.
I don’t know a single guy that looks at what Wolverine is *wearing* and says “I want to know more about him! I want to be him!” It’s Wolverines physique that does that, perhaps. But not his outfit. I never said that men in comic books are scantily clad. Ever. There are very few scantily clad men in comics. I have said that men in comics have skin tight outfits however. That’s just fact. Men might look at a female character and think of conquering them. Not all men. But sure, some might. There are also men that look at… Read more »
Rogue’s power set kind of requires her to be completely clothed, depending on whether or not she can control her powers. I’ve always wanted to be a superhero. But putting a superheroine in shoes I know would be painful to wear or a costume that I know is likely to ride up her butt or (especially in fantasy comics) in armor that I know would offer zero protection kind of wrecks the fantasy, taking it beyond reasonable suspension of disbelief.
Yeah that unrealistic armor really messes up the suspension of disbelief when it comes to people that can fly and have super powers. :P
Suspension of disbelief works for the fantastic elements in a story (if they are put together well). It doesn’t work for the realistic, everyday realities. It is especially important in a work with a lot of fantasy aspects to keep the everyday in order or the whole thing will unravel in the reader’s mind. Just because a work contains fantasy as a point of plot and character doesn’t mean nothing else has to make any sense!
I can only imagine what it’s like to fly or have superpowers, but I do know from experience that armor needs to protect the head and viscera- something it doesn’t do in books like Red Sonja. I know from experience that even walking- let alone fighting crime- in stiletto heels can be painful and unsafe. I know that it’s tough for female authority figures to be taken seriously even when we’re fully clothed- and it gets worse if we’re in a costume that has our butt hanging out.
I can only imagine what it’s like to fly or have superpowers, but I do know from experience that armor needs to protect the head and viscera- something it doesn’t do in books like Red Sonja. I know from experience that even walking- let alone fighting crime- in stiletto heels can be painful and unsafe. I know that it’s tough for female authority figures to be taken seriously even when we’re fully clothed- and it gets worse if we’re in a costume that has our butt hanging out.
Yeah, Rogue is fully clothed but she’s still wearing skin tight clothing and people -still- have a problem with that. If clothing affects your suspension of disbelief that heavily then comic books probably aren’t your genre. I mean, honestly, if that’s the way you look at comic books how can you get past the low functionality and common sense of Cyclops’s glasses and clothes that change colour and only grow in convenient places like the Hulk’s pants.
I write comics, and you’re telling me they aren’t my genre? That’s rich.
Guess what? Dressing female characters in embarrassing, impractical, or unsafe costumes is not an essential part of the comic book genre. In fact, it’s something comic books might be much better off without.
I write comics, and you’re telling me they aren’t my genre? That’s rich.
Guess what? Dressing female characters in embarrassing, impractical, or unsafe costumes is not an essential part of the comic book genre. In fact, it’s something comic books might be much better off without.
The point isn’t “no women can enjoy comics because of this” — it’s that “this is bad for the culture, here’s how we can fix it.” But there’s no reason we can’t still enjoy the stories, or why YOU shouldn’t. You’re allowed to like problematic things.
I never said that was the point. I have just commented on people who feel that a comics content can be judged by the clothing the heroes wear/ No where did I ever say that there’s no place for different interpretations on heroes. I never said that jeans and t-shirts, or for sweaters and running shoes aren’t welcomed. I never stated that these things wouldn’t be attractive. I do enjoy the stories. I’ve stated that many times. I’m not saying that as a woman I have universally been told I can’t. And I don’t need anyone’s (male or female) permission… Read more »
I don’t think this “fixes” it, though.
Hell yes, well said Lincoln.
As a female, I agree with you Lincoln.
Hate to rain on your parade, but the sexual objectification of male characters is by no stretch of anyone’s imagination equal to that of female characters. You’d have a point if male characters and female characters were treated equally. The reality is that they are not. As for why women choose to wear skintight clothing, female crime fighters in the real world most certainly do not unless they’re undercover as hookers.
Yes, its is. That the desirability of imaginary hypothetical men tends to sway less on how well their genitals are depicted (obviously, except for David Bowie in Labyrinth) and more on how wealthy, prestigious, and/or enigmatic they are doesn’t change the glorification. It only moves the goalposts. By the same ridiculous argument, men ought to decry how often men succeed in fantasy scenarios based solely on their machismo or wealth, and complain about how unfair a ideal that is to cast upon the frail egos of the men.
If you think that what turns a woman on is the fact that Batman is rich, you’ve got a lot more problems than thinking the way comic book women’s bodys are distorted and twisted to display their ginormous breasts and perfect asses simultaneously in their skin-tight half-costumes is okay.
You’re failing again to differentiate between power fantasy and sexual fantasy. The machismo and wealth of so many male superheroes is not to attract female readers at all, but to appeal to male readers who want to emulate Wolverine or Batman.
I never once spoke to the sexual objectification of men in comics. Never. I haven’t really spoken to sexual objectification at all so it’s quite unfair of you, and anyone else, to assume my standpoint on that situation. There are no superheroes in the real world. There are no cops, male or female, who wear spandex while walking their beat. Obviously. Women in the real world, do chose to wear them. That is fact. It’s in every day fashion. A woman can be fully clothed in a comic book and because too much leg is showing or because it’s skin… Read more »
I don’t know where your “real world” is, but where I live, most women wear jeans and tee shirts, or shorts if it’s hot. As for costumes, they’re a significant problem with how women are portrayed. Besides being woefully impractical for the job of crime fighting, most women in the real world might be embarrassed to go to work in as little clothing as superheroines are made to wear on their jobs.
I don’t know where your “real world” is, but where I live, most women wear jeans and tee shirts, or shorts if it’s hot. As for costumes, they’re a significant problem with how women are portrayed. Besides being woefully impractical for the job of crime fighting, most women in the real world might be embarrassed to go to work in as little clothing as superheroines are made to wear on their jobs.
The reality is that people draw and write their fantasies for themselves. If you want comics where the stories, characters and clothing appeal to your female fantasies, you pretty much need to get women writing and drawing the comics. You cannot try to tell men to stop creating their fantasies or to start creating female ones — nor should you — anymore than you should be telling women to create male fantasies. The issue is not that men are presenting their fantasies in the mainstream, it’s that there aren’t very many women getting the same opportunity.
Nope. But I can tell the muckety mucks that make the decisions up top why their sales are in decline and why they’re failing to grab new readers. And it’s perfectly within my rights to tell men to get with the 21st century and show female readers some respect.
Nope. But I can tell the muckety mucks that make the decisions up top why their sales are in decline and why they’re failing to grab new readers. And it’s perfectly within my rights to tell men to get with the 21st century and show female readers some respect.
PFFFTAHAHAAHA!! Wait, are you serious? Oh no.. you are aren’t you… So, if I were to make a female character, as a male, I would have to get some input from women before releasing her to the public, perhaps even put her through a few stress groups? Then I’d have to ask my fictional character what she wants to wear, so by the end of it all it isn’t even my character any more. Now on the other hand, if I’m a female and make a female character then that’s absolutely fine huh? Why don’t you look up the Skull… Read more »
No, you don’t have to do any of those things. Just don’t be surprised if women are offended when your female character is depicted running about daily in more revealing clothing than most of us would wear on the beach.
“when your female character is depicted running about daily in more revealing clothing than most of us would wear on the beach.” my ass, have you seen what women commonly wear on the beach now of days? So because my character would wear something skin tight or “revealing” by your standards it’s something that is frowned upon because I’m a guy designing it? So tell me, what if it’s a woman desigining, as I said above, in the case of Skull Girls or Bayonetta? Is that still sexist or is it empowered? I honestly wouldn’t mind if some dumb bitches… Read more »
If you can’t make a seductive female character without making her mostly naked, that smacks a bit like laziness with regard to depicting more subtle mannerisms and personality.
So it wouldn’t be logical for a seductive, more promiscuous to wear more provocative things? You’re right, I don’t understand how to depict characters at all! What is wrong with me!? I’m not saying that they always would, but when that is a big part of the character wouldn’t it make sense for that to be their main attire? I think so.
Before you write women characters you should really learn more about women as humans instead of stereotypes. For example, many women who wear provocative clothing are not seductive or promiscuous (and those aren’t the same thing anyway- you can be one without being the other). Many women who are seductive and/or promiscuous do not wear provocative clothing. There is not as much correlation there as stereotypes would lead you to believe. Dressing a certain way isn’t just about attracting sexual/romantic partners. There are also many social and psychological factors to consider, as well as personal taste and practicality.
Really now, so I’m guessing a shy female character would dress provocatively then? I mean, perhaps if she had selfesteem issues and wanted to be liked for the wrong reasons,perhaps she just wanted to be noticed, but other then that, if she was to be a shy, withdrawn character who wanted to be left alone she would more than likely dress very “modestly” or as normally as possible so as to blend in and be forgotten. There are numerous factors that might go into her personality or character, but you pick the strongest and design a character around that, or… Read more »
Seductive is not the same as “more promiscuous.” A woman can be fully clothed and still be flirtatious, still smile at the guy across the room, perhaps, if she’s so bold, grant a come-hither wink, etc.,. And seductiveness never in the real world is the number one defining trait of any real woman.
your right, wonder womans job is to be a slut, how dare she wear clothes! It only makes sense if she was a stripper, but she isn’t, she is a super hero. You’re a pig
I don’t see anything wrong with her costume. It looks like super hero attire. It’s interesting, unique, colorful. What’s wrong with it? Does it make her a slut because it’s a tad revealing(but pretty on par to the skin tight suits male heroes wear)? Because it doesn’t fit your definition of what you find acceptable? Well I’d say that makes you more against women than you’re making me out to be.
I don’t think you even read his post.
“feminazi”. . . .haven’t heard that one in a while. . . oh right, that’s because that’s a stereotype used as a derailment and can only force people to never take you seriously ever again. . .
Way to address the points above there! You sure taught me!
Too bad it’s also a very real group of people. Just sayin’
It was the use of the word “retard” that did it for me.
Dickerson, ever heard of doing research? Good creators engage in quite a bit of it to make sure a story or character is believable.
Dickerson, ever heard of doing research? Good creators engage in quite a bit of it to make sure a story or character is believable.
While I understand the importance of pointing this out, I would like to note that it can go both ways- “The male author is making them all dress “modestly”, they’re not choosing that for themselves.” There’s a difference between “the author made them do this” as the supreme reason and “this action fits the character” like with anything done in a novel or book.. Although, trying to apply logic to “Does this clothing choice fit the character?” can be extremely problematic due to how it can boil down to stereotyping and unfair dichotomies for who should do what. “Does she… Read more »
The difference is that Lincoln is looking at the situation without comment on the gender of the artist. If a woman chose to put her character in a similar outfit to Psylocke what would you say then?
There are a whole number of reasons why women may draw women like that. Maybe she has no say regarding the character design, as is often the case with for hire work. Maybe because she’s trying too hard to prove her work can appeal to men. Maybe because she’s bought into the idea that women in comics have to look a certain way. Maybe because she doesn’t care about raising the bar for how women are portrayed. Yes, there are plenty of misogynistic women out and about. There were a lot of women who didn’t want the right to vote,… Read more »
How about because she wants to? Because that’s how she envisions the character? I find a lot of your ideas about why women would do this sexist.
Pointing out the fact that sexism exists and that women must find ways to live in a world where it does is not sexist. Also, sexism is mainly a structural force. It’s not just about (or even mainly about) individual men oppressing individual women. It’s about men and women being socialized into an oppressive patriarchal system and most of them participating in/reinforcing that system, often without being consciously aware they are doing it. Women are very capable of perpetuating sexism and even more so of internalizing the male gaze. Happens every day.
I like to see my heroines wearing sexy clothing. I used to draw amateur comics and most of my female characters worn that type of stuff. I’m a woman. I think it’s sexist to assume I must have some underlying reason for doing this.
I note that none of the reasons you listed included the possibility that a female artist may genuinely like ‘that kind’ of costume and feel that it is appropriate for her character. In your scenario, the only reason a woman might design a costume like that is because she is unenlightened or misogynistic. I’m sorry, but that just seems like some pretty unenlightened reasoning. It’s pretty much a declaration that if that artist does not hold the same opinion as you that they are sexist.
A woman who draws women in a costume or footwear she knows would be painful does not show a high regard for other women.
Or she has different aesthetic sensibilities than you do. Your logic suggests that any woman who chooses aesthetic value over comfort holds herself and all women in low regard, and that’s ridiculous. For as long as there has been fashion, people have been wearing clothing, costumes, footwear, etc, that aren’t comfortable or are downright painful. Men and Women both. If a particular aesthetic doesn’t appeal to you that’s fine, don’t wear it. What’s not fine is judging someone’s character based on their personal aesthetic choices. Shaming people isn’t okay.
However, in a dangerous profession such as crime-fighting, aesthetics should take a back seat to function when the two don’t go together. Beautiful and practical can go very nicely together. However, neither describes the way too many female characters are drawn. I can shame artists who draw crime fighters while displaying flagrant ignorance of what crime fighters generally prefer wearing. It shows bad research. Furthermore, and this is the bigger problem, it makes it difficult for female readers to identify with superheroines. For one thing, a woman who lacks invulnerability but wears a costume that makes her more vulnerable to… Read more »
It’s really a shame that you have to assume that a woman must be being controlled by a man to draw that way. A down right shame. You’re insulting many female artists by accusing them of being misogynistic just because they like the look of a spandexed super hero. I never made any comment to how women are posed in comics. The only comment I made about it, is that I have issues with it. I’m only ever speaking to the costumes.
Or maybe she just likes them that way and the message that they send to her is different from the one you receive. Or do you allow for that possibility at all?
That it n combatdoesn’t make sense and it doesn’t protect her at all and has no logic for being something anyone would wear i
We’re talking about superheores. The “logic” of having protection based costumes is a little absurd. Gymnasts and atheletes wear what some comic book characters wear all the time.
Actually a good many of the comic book artists today are, in fact WOMEN! Look Up Ula Mos, Jenivieve Broomall, Nei Ruffino just to name a few. Frankly I have NO problem with the outfits in most comics.
The comic and gaming industry take female actionstars seriously. Hollywood never did!
Very true, but there are some characters that suit the style much more than this. I think a nice mix is the best approach. It’s rare that going 100% with anything is the best course of action.
Against her non-existent will no less!
What’s that? I can’t hear you over Psylocke’s buttcrack.
That’s odd, where did you find these engaging stories? I stopped reading super hero comics because it was just more of the same, characters never learned or changed for the better, and loads of pointless angst and melodrama. Also there was never any real satisfying resolutions to any of the story arcs I was reading. Also, I really hated some of the artwork–weird anatomy, weirder costume physics, and bizarre and uncomfortable poses that occasionally qualified as “body horror.”
Powers, Invincible, and Astro City are some examples of wonderfully engaging stories with super heroes. I usually prefer comics without super heroes though. I view the Marvel/DC universes similar to long running soap operas. Sure, they’re not always great stories, but that doesn’t stop them from being fun for a lot of people.
Atomic Robo is really excellent for light-hearted sci-fi adventure, too.
For an example of a well-made Marvel or DC story, try the Superman graphic novel Red Son. It explores what would have happened if Superman’s rocket fell to Earth just hours later than it did in the “real” DC universe and he landed in the Soviet Union.
I’ve found them in a few series. If you don’t like the stories then that’s cool. Comics just aren’t your genre, that’s no big deal. I don’t judge anyone on what they chose to spend there time reading. There is resolution in some cases but I don’t need that in every story I read, but that’s me. I also don’t like all comic book art. Some styles just aren’t for me. That’s cool too. I’d like to make clear that I never made comment on any of the poses or anatomy of characters in my comments because I’m not raising… Read more »
Women are made into sexual objects in comics, even the heroines. This alienates a lot of women from reading comics because they are being told that this is not for them; that these comics are for men’s eyes, and so are they.
Hmm, seems to me like you’re lumping in costumes with body poses and anatomy choices. Something I didn’t do because I am only speaking about the costumes as this is what the article was about. For you to assume my position on those issues is very unfair. Wearing spandex doesn’t make a woman a sexual object. I do think there is some art and some costume choice that go a little too far. I’ve said that already. But if you look at just the costumes. There are a ton that are really not as bad as they are made out… Read more »
You are not recognizing embarrassing or impractical superheroine costumes for what they are- part of a larger problem with how women are portrayed in comics.
Maybe you should stop feeling so alienated. Maybe judging something as “for men’s eyes” is making the issue worse.
Why is your opinion of comic books influenced by how women dress? >.>
There are some fully clothed heroines like the bats: Batwoman and Batgirl for instance. Some of the X-Women too but I agree it’s a fraction compared to the men.
Leaving aside the work itself, the moral lesson suggested by the article is just silly. Sure, characters like Psylocke could arguably stand some more clothes, and Vampi is supposed to be more porn than character. For the rest, though, male heroes wear just as little, to the outrage of precisely no one.
The opening line of the post and the point made by the artist is that there’s not supposed to be a moral lesson here. I think the moral debate is inevitable and one of the reasons why the post happened (but also to see whether these characters could retain their iconic appearance in a radically different costume) but it’s important to underline the “No Moral Lesson” disclaimer.
Thing is, though the artist doesn’t want to come across as a nanny, the no moral lesson disclaimer doesn’t really fly. It’s clearly an exercise at de-sexifying female superheroes which in and of itself is fine, but at least own it.
I mean, if its just an attempt to find out of characters remain iconic in different costumes, why not also draw a set of male superheroes wearing bandanas??
How is it “de-sexifying” when I find the outfits here of Supergirl, Powergirl, and Zatana exceptionally sexy? Wonder Woman I’m much less enamoured with, but that comes down to design decisions more than it is about what is “exposed”.
Strong, independent women are sexy in their own right; keep the lingerie for the bedroom.
I think there’s a difference between de-sexifying and de-titillating.
Personally, how “sexy” a woman is doesn’t depend on how much she is(n’t) wearing. “Sexy” is more of an attitude and can be incredibly subjective. I’d also argue style can enhance what is sexy, even when there’s more clothing. (For example, I think that drawing of Zatanna is pretty damn sexy.
Titillation, on the other hand, is entirely about the state of undress, and I would argue takes less effort than being “sexy.”
Maybe the point is to make the characters more practical and relatable, not less sexy? I agree with Craig: These outfits are actually sexier to me!
There are male heroes who wear just as little (although the reason is generally different–the Hulk is not sexy) and there are female heroes who wear more.
What’s the tendency, though? It’s not the individual that means anything, it’s the trends.
*Ahem* Though we’re a minority, there are some of us who find the Hulk VERY sexy.
If you say so…
It’s still not a sexualized depiction.
There should be a drinking game – take a shot any time someone makes the male/female false equivalency in a discussion about how much female comic book characters wear.
I think that the drawings work well. I think that the brown and relaxed look of Wonder Woman’s pants could use a redux – maybe even her boots. She just looks ‘frumpy’ and I don’t like super heroes looking ‘frumpy’. I, however, do not go with the idea of ‘more protection’ as people such as powergirl don’t need it and the others I don’t believe are wearing ballistic cloth armor. I could be wrong though. My thought about scantily clad women of action was using their sexuality a bit as a weapon/defense. Have someone take a second or two to… Read more »
Why does this apply only to females when it is equally true of males?
It is not equally true of males: The psychological and societal reactions towards scantily clad men is completely different, and not likely to be used to any advantage.
Oh? If the only point and purpose is to distract for a few seconds, you think an exposed male body wouldn’t do that? Sure, it wouldn’t distract with the thought of “bow chicka bow wow” but it would DISTRACT, and that’s the core argument, isn’t it? So why not have some assless chaps on a guy, if you think distraction works so much better than punching?
“So why not have some assless chaps on a guy, if you think distraction works so much better than punching?”
I love you.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I’ll grant you that the reactions are different, but I’ll dispute that they couldn’t be used to any combat advantage. Making a villain flinch away from the perfectly sculpted crotch piece protecting and visibly outlining one’s package could be just as useful as getting them to turn their head to an outfit that that screams “just barely not nude woman here”.
Guys recoil from another guy’s genitalia a lot faster than they turn towards a naked woman.
Females are sexual beings too, and I would probably be distracted if Batman came at me wearing a nice pair of boxer briefs. <.< Women fawn all over Superman and Spiderman when they're in costume already.
Yeah, that’s because the viewer is assumed to be male and heterosexual.
But these heroes would not be targeting the VIEWERS with this, they’d be targeting the VILLAINS. Who may turn out to look like they were designed by the same people, but from the characters’ perspective should be expected to reflect the diversity of the world around them.
Historiclly speaking, there have actually been those who went into war/battle naked, to intimidate their opponents. I bet many would not only do a double-take the first time they saw that, but also feel uneasy to various degrees at the mere audacity of fighting naked: Are they so confident of their skills that they don’t need armour? Perhaps they really are that good? Many men might also hesitate due to their imagination putting them in that same situation, with the resulting fears/worries. The reason why enemies would hesitate might differ, but generally there is such a taboo in our wester… Read more »
I honest believe Power Girl and Supergirl would be fine with wearing those kinds of things, mostly because the ones above will be LESS LIKELY of being destroyed in a fight. Yes, their bodies are invulnerable, but their uniforms are not. They get ripped and torn all the time, depending on the writer and end up exposing too much. I could easily see them wearing it for the sake of not wanting to end up naked too quickly. As for women using their bodies as weapons, that might be true for some heroes, but not these ones. Supergirl and Power… Read more »
great…now make me a sandwich
I wish someone could and would—if you were made into a sandwich, you’d be more use to the world than you are currently.
If you aren’t old enough to know how to even make a sandwich, then you should not be on the Internet, little boy. Log off your mommy’s account NOW!
what the f? I’m a straight guy and I’d actually PREFER if they would be drawn like this? there must be something awfully wrong with me?
Nothing wrong with you at all!
There’s actually a thing (it has some official name but I can’t remember) that peaks attraction for males. It’s basically “more is less.” Scanty clothes, while appealing, aren’t as attractive to the average male because it leaves nothing to the imagination, while clothes that show less skin are more appealing because the male uses his imagination, and it even gives a sense of mystery. “What’s under her clothes? Hmmm…”
Basically, in a nutshell.
If any of that makes sense.
Nudity is less attractive than juuuuust barely covering up.
I’m not a fan of the Wonder Woman design, but the rest are pretty good.
I’m a girl-thing, and I didn’t like the Wonder Woman one, either. Something about the pants were weird. Everything else was playful and sexier than the originals. Good work!
Yeah, her pants didn’t work. Wrong color. Khakis don’t go with the rest of the uniform.
I think the wonder woman pants look like business attire, bad-guy skull crackin business!
I agree, the pants weren’t quite right. I found myself thinking she ought to have armor there, like she does around her chest, waist and wrists (those bracers).
True. On the other hand, the new 52 Wonder Woman is fully dressed anyway.
Ditto, Allen. The khaki looks weird and out of place. Black would be the least distracting thing there, imo.
I dont think you are getting the point here, these wasnt´made to be appeling/attractive to men.
This was made just beacuse superwomens are always depicted as sexobjects. This was made to show that it doesnt have to be that way,
Isn’t that exactly the point, though? I understand that these weren’t specifically designed in order to titillate the average young male – but the above demonstrates that even these still do, perhaps even moreso for many. ( Now, granted, they’re all still with a certain build, ample bosoms, and everything else a young male might find appealing besides showing skin, but then the artist would have to consider whether A cup ‘plus size’ superheroines would still have the same non-sexual draw to the character. ) So if drawing them this way doesn’t really change the hubba-hubba effect, then what does… Read more »
they’re superheroes. they have amazing bodies and are dressed to show them off because part of each and every one of these characters is a superhuman physique — same thing with superheroes, or do the average guys really look like Batman and Superman and run around in tights that show off every single bulging muscle? if the mere existence and visibility of a drawing of a superheroine in tights or a short skirt with a curvaceous figure is sexist, or if it means I automatically offend women because I prefer to see comics drawn that way, then I’m just destined… Read more »
I think maybe one difference is that Batman and Superman get to wear tights, and sometimes female superheroes don’t get to wear tights. If it’s attractive for a male superhero to be covered from neck to toes, why is a different standard applied to female superheroes? That’s more how I read it.
I know i’m a little late to this party, but i saw this comment & i thought i’d take a second to reply to it.
The overwhelming majority of female characters do in fact dress in full length costumes.
Yes, you can certainly point to a few outliers who don’t, such as Emma Frost & Psclocke, but by that same standard i can point to classic Namor & Dr Manhattan (who is literally naked for 90% of his appearances).
False equivalence. Most male characters are not drawn dressed as skimpily or in such hypersexualized poses as female characters are. Even when superheroes are drawn in civvies, the men are for the most part dressed normally, the women shown in outfits that leave little to the imagination.
go back and re-read my post until you actually comprehend what I said.
I comprehend perfectly. I just think you’re making lame excuses, and I’m not buying ’em.
You’re an idiot and you should give your computers to the local YMCA.
The main difference between the idealized physiques of male and female superheroes is quite simple: Males are drawn as the men male readers would like to *be*; females are drawn as the women male readers would like to *be with*. They’re both idealized from a male perspective.
Nonsense. Not all male readers desire to be heavily muscled.
So what you’re saying is, you don’t want comics to be for BOTH sexes, just yours. ‘Cause I’ve noticed male characters aren’t exactly shown in the same kind of sexual poses that female ones are, even if you completely ignore the costuming. Nor are you as likely to see Superman’s buttcrack (or, heck, butt at all) as you are to see, say, Huntress or Black Canary’s or Wonder Woman’s. Why is it cool for YOU to get fan service, while gay men and straight women don’t? It’s not the sexiness of the female characters that bothers me; it’s the complete… Read more »
“It’s not the sexiness of the female characters that bothers me; it’s the complete and total double standard.” Agreed~ And, from a writing standpoint it strains the internal consistency, which makes for a bad experience as a reader and weak writing. If a male hero is head-to-toe in protective armor, it stands to reason that said females of similar powersets and concerns should. If the deal is the character eschews armor or protection for one reason or another, it should apply across the board. The deal with Emma Frost was always that she used her sexuality as another weapon, another… Read more »
“But other characters with as much to worry about as Frost, esp males, are head to toe in said body armor. What gives?” No they aren’t. Take Martian Manhunter for example: Guy wears speedo’s with suspenders. Or Dr Manhattan who is literally naked. Yes you can point to examples & say “see this exists” & you’d be right, it does exist. However you can’t point to it & say “this is the rule,” because what you are pointing to is actually in the extreme minority. So here it is: Its escapism, its meant to be sexy, its not trying to… Read more »
They always conveniently forget Yaoi manga.
Forget Yaoi manga, you can do this in the mainstream: Pick up a romance novel, or practically any womens magazine.
There is plenty of fan service for women and gays in Japanese comics.
Zatanna looks like the annoying middle manager from my office job in that get-up.
It’s a social point. I find my husband highly attractive, but he doesn’t do anything special for me to see him as such.
If you don’t think men are ever depicted as sex objects in comic books, you need to read almost any issue in which Nightwing is around women. That male superhero ends up naked or nearly naked more often than any ten female superheroes in comic books! And you should notice that in comic books — and films and television, for that matter — when a man flirts too aggressively with a female, that’s code for the man as a supervillain or a jerk, and if she beats him up by kneeing him in the groin and then breaking his arm… Read more »
Again, you are talking about a common juvenile male fantasy. Female fantasies are largely ignored in comics.
You obviously have never read Japanese comics, then.
Actually, I have. Some are pretty good, but there are a lot that vigorously reinforce gender stereotypes, too, particularly in shojou manga. And how do those skimpy schoolgirl outfits appeal to feminine fantasies?
I’m bi and I feel that way with guys aswell as with girls. =]
“The average male” prefers more scantily-clad females. Males who prefer women to be more fully clothed are the exception, not the rule. But that makes you exceptional, which is good.
Also, there’s an element of classiness that is probably appealing. I find it so.
Not really. A tasteful miniskirt may be more appealing than one that shows nearly everything but I think I can safely speak for nearly all straight men and say that we still prefer the mini to the full length. And any dress of any length at all to a pair of baggy, shapeless pants.
Male sexual attraction begins with what we see. It doesn’t end there but that is where it ALWAYS starts.
A full-length shirt doesn’t show off your legs though… But what about a tasteful mini skirt compared to tight jeans or leggings? Baggy, shapeless pants look bad on everyone, except for maybe extremely fat people, but then only because the alternative is worse. And no, I wouldn’t say that’s ALWAYS where it starts, but it’s definitely that way for the vast majority. There are men (and women) who are demi-sexual, which means that unless they’re in love with a person they don’t feel sexual attraction towards him or her. So yes, it works a bit backwards compared to most, but… Read more »
Yes, that’s always where it starts. Warm feelings — love, closeness, however you classify them — add depth to sexual attraction. But the initial spark, for men, is always visual. There is no such thing as a demi-sexual man, as you describe, although I have no doubt that there are men who play that role because we are constantly told as men today that many aspects of our normal sexuality (note: normal sexuality does not include raping people) are oppressive and wrong. So of course there are guys who want to pretend they aren’t there hoping they’ll gain more acceptance… Read more »
So you’re assuming asexual men don’t exist? Because you aren’t one!? Wow… that’s… pretty sexist actually. Against your own sex, no less! You’ve basically stated there that you don’t think somebody is a male (or certainly not “normal”, to use your own word), if they don’t tend to feel sexual urges. In reality, somewhere around 1% of the population of BOTH sexes is some variant of self-identified asexual, and that’s not even considering those who self-identify as ACTUALLY “demi-sexual” and/or as having low libido (note: it is actually NORMAL for many men, for libido to go down after you’ve “settled… Read more »
I have to point out a fault in your logic: if something is in the minority – especially in such a small minority, such as the %1 you used as an example – then it is -not-, by definition, normal. Is that a nice way of putting it? No. But it is what it is. Trying to argue that is just skewing the truth for the sake of “kindness”/political correctness. You are right in that men do vary greatly in the…”severity” of their sexual appetite. Hell, mine sways from no interest to unending hunger at a moment’s notice, and can… Read more »
You are neglecting those who are Sapiosexual. Someone who is turned on by intelligence. I happen to be one of them. I am incredibly turned on by intelligence. It doesn’t matter the subject matter, knowledge is a turn on. If someone knows a great deal about something, I become aroused talking with them. Their physical attributes neither aid nor hinder my physical response to them. To the point that I would not be able to get it up for even a perfect 10, unless that perfect 10 was an astrophysicist. I certainly understand the concept of physically attractive. I can… Read more »
Right on, brother!
You sir, have taste. And I’m with you on that as well. They all look much better to me as well!
Yeah, it’s called “maturity.” I suffer from the same affliction, but only in occasional bouts; apparently some comic artists and fans don’t. :)
There’s actually a thing (it has some official name but I can’t remember) that peaks attraction for males. It’s basically “more is less.” Scanty clothes, while appealing, aren’t as attractive to the average male because it leaves nothing to the imagination, while clothes that show less skin are more appealing because the male uses his imagination, and it even gives a sense of mystery. “What’s under her clothes? Hmmm…”
Basically, in a nutshell.
If any of that makes sense.
You don’t have to turn in your sexuality to be mature. It’s okay to appreciate, even in art. The current DC designs (including PG’s return to her original look) are to me a lot better than these.
Finally, someone with some sense!
Oh c’mon…. They look okay.They look less interesting. It’s no improvement. There is nothing wrong with they way they look originally and fully clothed. Don’t be scared, skin doesn’t hurt and neither does cloth.
I sorta have to agree; we shouldn’t be ashamed of the nude form. Still, comics/fantasy is not fair game for female equality. I love the idea of female heroines getting very cool gear and clothing. As an artist, I do not find these particular designs bad…just not very good. I wholly support the idea behind these concepts but if I saw these outfits it wouldn’t appeal to me.
I agree entirely. In trying to cover them up, the artist went too far in the other direction. Baggy clothes are not the kind of thing you wanna be wearing in a fight, and adding layers is going to do nothing but constrict their movements. There’s a reason why even most male heroes costumes are form-fitting.
I was about to say the same thing. Now they are clothed far *more* than the men. Wonder Woman is wearing Dockers! And her head is too big. Psylocke and Elektra are closer to where it should be. Powergirl is third. I came here with the hopes of cheering these on, but if I wasn’t so stupidly busy I might give it an attempt myself.
LOL DOCKERS!
I didn’t think that Black Canary’s heavy trousers looked particularly battle ready for an expert martial artist. But Electra’s outfit is perfectly in character. But this is an exercise to make a point after all, so we’re nit-picking here.
Said the person who has never been in a fight. Ever tried kicking above your head in sweatpants? Ever tried in skinny jeans? Plenty of martial artists wear baggy clothes, the fabric is really what matters.
Yea, thats why boxers and MMA fighters all wear baggy clothes…OH WAIT, THAT WOULD BE A HORRID DISADVANTAGE. Technically, the superheros who wear the least are the most prepared for close combat, but I always figure, if your powers cant stop bullets, better armor up.
Not entirely true. Have you ever seen Asian martial arts films? The baggy clothes can assist in a fight because they conceal the movements of the fighter and they can also distract the opponent. Also, baggy clothes can be used to conceal weapons. One downside is that they can get in the way (if you don’t know how to move in them) or someone can use them against you. Also, most male figures have capes, which, like extra layers (if done correctly), can add flare.
Exactly! It also depends on the form of martial art. For wrestling (the real kind; not the soap opera) or any form of grappling, we wear form-fitting clothes. You don’t want to give your opponent something to grab.
Someone didn’t get Edna’s memo, though: “NO CAPES!” ;)
Eh. I’m kinda in love with the Supergirl and Power Girl designs, myself.
The problem is that they treat the women as sexual objects instead of heroes, which is what they are. Most male heroes are not dressed up like Chip n’ Dale’s dancers, so why should the females be?
No. The males aren’t scantily clad. They just make up for it with RAGING muscles and HUGE bulges. The problem is girls don’t actually read comics, they just go nuts whenever they see a picture of a sexy chick because it attacks their self-consciousness which is already statistically lower over all than that of males. You don’t see girls complaining about THOR who is Fabio with a hammer, Or how about this guy? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4b/Hyperionmarvel.png/250px-Hyperionmarvel.png Let’s face it. Comics exaggerate BOTH male and female. They’re both made into sexual objects but they’re done so equally. Get over it.
I’ll NEVER have a bum chin like THAT!
Uh…don’t even start with the “girls don’t actually read comics” B.S. I am decidedly female and have avidly read them since I was old enough to read. I just didn’t expect superheroes to look like the people I saw every day. In that, I agree with you that comics exaggerate both sexes. Me, I always those with dirty minds would take it there no matter what they’re wearing. Those who were there for the story wouldn’t.
Yes. Alas, men want women. Well, most of them. Who knew? And as for female comic readers: they are not the majority. But with the new comics movies have lured in a lot of girls, and so has the general “geek” culture that has been blossoming for some time now. I just don’t think it’s fair that women can have Fifty Shades and romance novels where men have the personalities of sponges and then they point fingers at comics that were largely geared towards teenaged boys.
In Fifty shades and harlequin-style romance novels, women also have the personality of sponges. That genre in general at least as full of harmful, sexist stereotypes as the comic industry. Women who critique comics for sexism and objectification usually don’t read that kind of romance (if they read romance at all) and are usually very aware of the problematic nature of most of those novels.
But do you spend time berating women for reading them and calling them sexist losers — because that’s what comes the way of boys and men who want to read comics in which Wonder Woman isn’t wearing khakis.
Actually, some of us do. Because they are sexist losers.
And unfortunately, with the emergence of female readers, comics now kinda suck. Now there’s little awesomely-drawn panels of action in favor of boring emo panels for fictional characters who aren’t even 100% established – only changed and rebooted every other year for some topical news story and dumb Buffy/Joss Whedon-esque sarcasm dialogue every other line. Thanks for your contribution, women.
That’s not because of female readers. That’s because of Frank Miller. Or maybe some other male comic book writer. Name one “boring emo panel” written by a woman.
BTW, the New 52 reboot is super-way-sexist. Check out Starfire. So def not our fault they rebooted shit. It sounds like a boy problem.
Bear in mind that most of the comics written these days that suck happen to be written by men.
You equate superhero stories with romance novels?
You do realize that sexuality is actually the POINT of the latter, yes?
For the record, I loathe Fifty Shades and most romance novels specifically for that reason. I also loathe your generalizations about women and what we read.
For the record, I hate Fifty Shades and most romance novels.
It makes sense for them to have muscles though. They have to be in shape in order to do what they do. It actually makes sense for them to have big muscles, maybe not as much as they do, but still.
There’s a large difference in the muscles you would develop from being a superhero and the body builder like ones pictured in comic books however.
In shape, yes. Huge muscles, no. I point out Bruce Lee. He lifted weights and ate a healthy and appropriate diet; Bruce Lee conditioned his body not to be a bulky body builder like Arnold Schwarzenegger but to be a very able-body fighter proving that muscle size does not equate to striking power. It’s a size vs. speed ratio and physics. Weight of limb or force behind the impact plus speed. There are muscles that slow you down, like your biceps, and muscles that speed you up, like your triceps. Both give you weight but you’ll never hit if you… Read more »
I agree to the premise that male superheros do, at least, need to be in shape. And, as long as we are going with “what makes sense” in order to do what they do, what woman on the planet would show up to a fight in a bakini when she could wear normal, more protective clothing that doesn’t make her wonder if she might expose herself mid-punch? That was what always bothered me while reading comics. And, being a girl who actually is involved in martial arts of many forms, I would never be caught dead in what superheroines usually… Read more »
And can you imagine doing martial arts in high heels? I’m also a martial artist, and when I read comics and watch movies and these women are running around and kicking ass in 5″ heels it just makes me laugh.
Think Aida Wong from Resident Evil.
Ridiculous.
No. You are mistaking “sexual fantasy” for “power fantasy.” Many superheroines and their costumes are designed to titillate male readers – I think everyone can pretty much agree on that point. Male superheroes, however, are not designed to titillate female readers. I know many men find this hard to believe, but most women are NOT actually attracted to bulging, steroidal musclebeasts. Male superheroes are not designed to appeal to female readers, they are designed to appeal to MALE readers. Male superheroes are muscular and powerful because MEN want to BE muscular and powerful. Female superheroes are impossibly voluptuous and scantily-clad… Read more »
Adorable. You’ve managed to make yourself the victim no matter what. Like girl’s don’t want to be attractive or have super powers. It goes both ways or it goes neither way.
A+ on missing the point entirely. We’re all so proud of you. Women may want to be attractive. But they DON’T want their attractiveness to be viewed as their only relevant trait, and they DON’T want to be reduced to sexual objects without depth or agency. Also, once again, the “beauty standard” portrayed in comics is a MALE fantasy, not a FEMALE fantasy. Cuz let me tell you, women may want to be thin and busty and long-legged, but the women in comics are taken so many miles beyond that ideal that (as someone else on this thread put it)… Read more »
Eloquently stated. Agreed. I read comics. I didn’t read them when I was younger, but now in my early forties with teen and young adult children, I totally enjoy them. I’ll stop reading any comic or book when the women represented are paper cut outs, half naked, paper thin representations. Depth, real beauty, intelligence, cunning, strength… these are the characteristics I would like to see in my female characters… and my male characters, for that matter.
So why don’t said females DRAW their own comics how they want instead of legislating demands on others’ creative talents. You do realize there’s a looooooot of time and discipline involved, right? It’s the same when I hear black folks complaining that white creators don’t focus enough on black characters – as if white creators have a secret insight into how black folks feel?
They do. But the toxic culture of sexism in comics has created what I can only describe as an unofficial industry standard that weeds out many talented female and feminist voices. It is not that women and woman-friendly comic artists and writers do not exist – it is that they are not being given jobs. It’s all well and good to say, “just make your own!” but that’s a lot harder than it sounds when “making your own” requires tons of “time and discipline” but doesn’t pay the rent. Also, I think it’s pretty fair to “legislate demands on others’… Read more »
No one really has any right to tell someone else what they should create or how they should create it. I am very much for diversity — in all forms — in creative businesses. But I am very much against telling anyone who is doing the work that their creative vision needs to be changed to placate some demographic. If what’s being done is offensive in the extreme, then the artist should be replaced. “No, you draw it this way” is unacceptable.
This is true when someone is creating art for their own personal enjoyment. People can make whatever weird offensive shit they want to on their own time. But comics are an art that is made for an audience – a large, paying audience – and it makes no sense to claim that the artists are not responsible in any way to that audience. This is especially true in the major long-running superhero comics, where the artists are often working with characters that someone else created a long time ago. This means they have to please a pre-existing audience, or risk… Read more »
You do get that you’re arguing against something I’m not really saying though, right? My point is that if artists are doing stuff they don’t really want to do, they will create bad art. If drawing Power Girl now and they hate doing it because of hole in all her tops, then they’re producing lousy stuff. Therefore, to my mind, the way to change what’s produced is to make sure everyone there is drawing something they can really sink their heart and soul into. I get that it’s a business. So what I’m saying is, however a company thinks they… Read more »
Well, to that I guess I can only say: it is appalling and shameful that comic book companies are still hiring artists whose “creative vision” is crippled by the concept that women are people.
It’s not really about trying to get inside their heads. That’s impossible and there’s no point anyway. Just hire people who produce the kind of work you want to see. It’s a big stretch to suggest that a guy who wants to draw a scantily clad heroine can’t possibly view her as a person. But that gets into trying to figure out what’s going on in someone’s head and, fortunately, that is not necessary.
There are female artists who LIKE the sexy outfits and looks, Amanda Conner, Holly Golightly, etc. And while there are always problems and prejudices and the world isn’t perfect, I don’t think we’d all call comics a “toxic culture of sexism”
There is such a thing as internalized misogyny, and women are capable of being sexist too. That there are “female artists who like the sexy outfits and looks” does not mean that those outfits and looks are automatically not sexist. Also, many women in the comics industry (both artists and readers), don’t speak out about sexism because they find it less draining to deal with the constant background noise of sexism than to try to do something about it and face the hostile backlash that inevitably follows. And that is a survival tactic, not an implicit endorsement of sexism. You… Read more »
There is nothing stopping anyone from creating a comic and posting it online, or selling a digital copy. Who cares about the mainstream companies? They are irrelevant.
You honestly think Wonder Woman in tights was only a sexualized object but Wonder Woman in khaki pants — casual Friday attire for God’s sake! — is on her way to self-actualization? Be serious.
You honestly think that that’s my argument? Cloth isn’t inherently sexist. I’m saying that unnecessarily and illogically sexualized costumes on female characters is a symptom of a much larger problem with sexism in the comics industry, which, in addition to the silly costumes, often treats female characters as “little more than breathing sex toys who are only powerful because it makes them HAWTT!! and who are used only as love interests, motivations, and plot devices for the male superheroes.” (since I keep having to repeat myself, I might as well quote myself) The costumes aren’t the cause, they’re just the… Read more »
Don’t waste my time dodging your own words. You’re the one said: “They do not want to see female characters who are little more than breathing sex toys who are only powerful because it makes them HAWTT!! and who are used only as love interests, motivations, and plot devices for the male superheroes.” Well, the only thing different here is the costumes, so it’s logical to assume that you think putting Wonder Woman in Dockers (I still can’t believe there are people who actually LIKE that one) is going to fix that problem, or at least be a big part… Read more »
We seem to have had some miscommunication in the frame of our arguments here. I’ve been talking about sexism in comics more widely, and in that context I stand by what I said. However you are correct that in the context of these *specific* pieces of art, changing these heroines’ costumes is an interesting thought exercise, but doesn’t really do much on its own to address the sexism that may or may not be present in their individual storylines. Going through a Power Girl comic and gluing construction paper over her boob window obviously isn’t gonna do jack shit to… Read more »
I don’t think changes to these characters is the ultimate solution to anything. I felt like you were posting as if it would be. That’s why I made my comment. I like the Elektra costume. I hate the Wonder Woman costume. I don’t know who said it first but no superheroine (or hero) should ever be seen in Dockers. I didn’t care for the rest of the costumes. They just look baggy and unsophisticated in my mind, for the most part. I’m not sure why Powergirl’s look seems popular. To me she looks like a pharmacist in a cape. But… Read more »
Okay. It sounds like we’re in agreement on this point, then. Glad we worked that out, I guess…?
Um, yeah, I guess so — about the larger issues.
…
I have no idea what to make of you posting this now. Five months later. After we seemed to have reached some form of common ground. I guess that’s another point I’ve missed. Oh well. Have a nice life.
Having sexuality be a trait doesn’t mean it’s the only trait, or that they’re viewed as objects. If you think for example Wonder Woman or Power Girl’s standard comic outfits make either of these things the case, I humbly disagree. There’s nothing wrong there
No, it doesn’t always mean that. And in a perfect world, it would NEVER mean that. But in the imperfect world we live in, it frequently DOES. I am NOT trying to argue any of the following: 1) That complex and interesting female characters whose sexuality is an important aspect of their character do not exist (Emma Frost being the classic example: she is sexualized because she chooses to be, because that is a major aspect of her personality). 2) That characters like Emma Frost should not exist, or that female characters with strong sexuality are inherently sexist. 3) That… Read more »
Thank God *ONE* person gets it.
but are not males brought to the same heights? do you not see men with biceps the size of tree trunks, with pecs the size of platters? once again, it goes both ways. also, the idea that you can declare what is a male fantasy or not completely destroys the structure of a debate. we can’t honestly discuss things if you get to write all of the rules. furthermore, I don’t know how many comic books you have actually read, but there are plenty of female characters, bot unrealistically beautiful and not, who have complex characters, motives, and personalities. the… Read more »
Okay what even? What are you trying to argue here? Are you suggesting that being muscular and powerful isn’t a common male fantasy? That skinny, scantily-clad women with large chests isn’t a common male fantasy? I’m not trying to “write the rules,” I’m just pointing out what I thought were obvious social trends. Usually I have to argue that women aren’t as obsessed with boobs and muscles as men are; I’m not sure I’ve ever had to argue that men like boobs and muscles. I guess you’ll have to enlighten me. What exactly would you define as the social norm… Read more »
Sorry, males are the majority of comic book readers. Sure, there are females that read them too, but the comic book industry makes most of its money from males, so from a business standpoint, it makes sense for them to cater to a male mindset’s wants so that they can keep making money. And it is sad that you really view the female characters in comics as useless other than giving male readers a cheap thrill… Yeah, their hero costumes might not be ideal for the business they’re in, but that’s focusing on how the character looks, and not how… Read more »
Huh. See, that’s curious, isn’t it? Because fantasy of the sort that superhero comics fall under, in other contexts, is genre with pretty a significant female slant. Female readership of almost all forms of fiction literature is drastically higher than male readership. I have no stats to back this up, but in my purely anecdotal experience women are much more likely to watch and “follow” fiction television shows. Fanfiction, an (unfairly) maligned but incredibly prolific source of media generation, is almost EXCLUSIVELY female, both in its readership and its authorship. And even though action movies are often said to be… Read more »
Can I, like, subscribe to you on twitter or something? You are saying absolutely everything I say, all alone and by myself, elsewhere. I love you! But part of me says “give it up,” because the men are always going to be too stupid to get it. They’ve made it clear they don’t understand being sexualized–they’ve never felt uncomfortable and objectified when someone whistled at them, or stared at their asses or grabbed at them like they’re property. They’ve never seen that uncomfortable hunger in someone else’s eyes and understood that while sex is awesome, being seen as a sex-object… Read more »
I’m going to take your initial off-hand and probably mostly facetious remark totally seriously and use it as an opportunity to shamelessly promote myself and make new internet friends. I don’t have a twitter, but I do have a tumblr! (under the same username that I’m using here, which is why I’m kinda meh about proclaiming my blog to all the trolls here, because if they were serious trolls they already would’ve found me) I mostly just reblog stuff, but I do occasionally post original rants of questionable quality. So you should find me and we can be feminism bffs.… Read more »
Well, there ARE those guys capable of understanding. Sadly, we seem to be too few and far between ^^; And ogling aside, the fact that the same behaviour is judged differently depending on whether it’s a man or a woman showcasing it is disgraceful. I have a very androgynous friend, who when perceived as female is viewed as downright rude when it takes 30 seconds before “she” holds doors open for elderly people, or stands to help mums onto the bus with their prams. And when regarded as male, “he” is seen as very sensitive and compassionate when it ONLY… Read more »
BS. A significant portion of manga is created to appeal to women and girls.
Thanks for putting forward such a well thought out and eloquent argument. Everything I would love to say but can’t put into words!
adorable. like “attractive” equates to fighting crime in your goddamn lingerie.
Aaaaaaaactually, if your scope of comics was actually about comics and not the MainStream Corporate-Comics then you’d find a whole massive horde of indie comics out there that depict women more naturally. Strangers in paradise anyone? They just don’t survive or get in the limelight because of… gasp.. THE DUMB AUDIENCE.
Fair point. I won’t deny that the comics medium as a whole contains some pretty mind-blowing awesomeness alongside its frequent epic suckitude. And fuck yeah, the whole “indie comic” genre has been an AMAZING platform for women’s voices and talents. BUT. It is still relevant to critique the “mainstream,” because that is what has the greatest impact on the mainstream culture OUTSIDE of comics. Sexism in the increasingly influential “mainstream comics” world should not be ignored or dismissed simply because non-sexist comics exist in the indie sphere. As for “indie comics” not surviving in the market due to lack of… Read more »
Actually, you’re mistaken: many male superheroes ARE designed to appeal to women — but they’re designed by men who honestly believe that women are attracted to “bulging, steroidal musclebeasts”. These are NOT men’s fantasies (very few men want to look that ridiculous), these are men’s mistaken assumptions about women’s fantasies. That’s why the “bulging, steroidal musclebeasts” phase had no real staying power, and why the long-lasting male superheroes have athlete bodies as opposed to pumped up weight lifter bodies. (Even the hulk looks less like a “bulging, steroidal musclebeast” and more like a high school football champion for most of… Read more »
Typical idiocracy. Find a new venue to spew your hate speak. Why not stick with the stories of Jane Austen for their non-titillating exposition and contemporary woman’s viewpoint… If you’re going to join in a cultural genre and then immediately complain how that cultural genre doesn’t fit into YOUR exact worldview, then you are an ignorant sexist bigot.
Nonsense. Having muscles looks like it requires a lot of strenuous exercise–no one fantasizes about hard work. A true male power fantasy would be someone like Hugh Hefner: a fugly slob who lounges about in pyjamas, yet still gets women.
I’m going to let Shortpacked! explain it for me: http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/
As a girl who reads comics to READ them… lolwut.
…I read comics and I’m a girl. :(
“The problem is girls don’t actually read comics….” You just invalidated your entire argument with this statement. “Girls”, that is to say women of all ages very much DO read comics. We also write them and draw them.
Gee, it couldn’t be that these issues prevent many women (and men, actually) from getting into them, could it?
I am not attacked to overly muscled men (like the photo you posted). However, on a complete different line of thought, the women’s outfits are also impractical. “I’m going to go fight a bad guy… what to wear, what to wear? Oh, how about my matching metal underwear set, four-inch heels and a cape. Perfect.” Because the bad guy never aims for the arms, legs or stomach.
I like to call them combat bikinis. I for one would not wear something wherein my less well controlled bits might fall out in the middle of performing a round house kick. Yeah?
It’s called ‘fantasy’. Look it up some time.
So it’s lack of realism in your superheroines that you bemoan? Oh, where do I begin?
Not realism, but making sense. Plausibility.
And, even if you don’t care about all that, the double standard.
I can begin by insisting that the portrayal of any characters not be beyond reasonable suspension of disbelief. I can suspend disbelief to indulge the fantasy of having super powers. Crime fighters who look like toothpicks with helium balloons for breasts and who chase down criminals while wearing six inch stiletto heels without ever complaining of sore feet is beyond reasonable suspension of disbelief.
Lol. Really? Really dude? You still think girls don’t read comics? The eighties called, they want their mentality back. Get with the times, man.
Bulging muscles are a male power fantasy.
Scantily clad women are a male sexual fantasy.
This is why women complain. And, for reference, just under half of the comic audience is female.
Sexuality in and of itself is not sexist, and doesn’t need to be villified. People or fictional people showing some skin or wearing tight clothes is not inherently immature or problematic. Nor does including sexuality as part of the mix make it the only part, or objectify. Finding someone sexy does not mean you disrespect them.
The original designs are a lot better than these in my opinion. Long live ART.
Sexuality has nothing to do with the point. Sexualization–injecting sexuality where none belongs–is a problem.
Different treatment of men and women is sexist. It is, y’know, the definition.
I’m sorry but .. he kinda looks like he dropped a duce. Not all that cute.
Last I checked, I’m female, and I read comics as well as write some. The problem is that there is a lot in comics that alienates female readers, mostly pertaining to how women are portrayed.
Though I agree, I disagree. The only difference is men are different than women so different things make them sexual objects. Eg: I don’t think it’s a coincidence all the male superheroes wear skintight spandex and are ripped beyond belief whether strength is their power or not. So I agree, but it needs to stop on both sides. Wonder Woman needs a shirt under her armor (pants would restrict her movement too much, just saying) and Batman needs kevlar.
Batman HAS kevlar. Have you read any comics?
I read in a ‘How to draw comic book characters’ book that they insist that you remove the ribs(floating ribs) which makes the females more curvy or the females will look sickly. The book also had a lack of understanding of body types in both males and females.
There are better comic book guides out there though. It sounds like you just got a bad guide book. Because drawing figures should be about anatomical reality. Even if you distort reality a little (like drawing manga characters with huge eyes) you want to start by learning how to draw people as they look naturally. You have to draw from nature and practice that a bunch before you can draw realistically from imagination.
Skin doesn’t hurt, but a real life Electra would have left several pounds of flesh on the pavement/walls/surfaces where she have been thrown/fallen in alla battles. There is a reason for motorbikes to wear full body protection gear instead of bathing suits. And the invernuable heroines would prefere to be taken seriously by guards/policemen/whoever they have to convince within 30 seconds to defeat the bad guy instead of beeing seen as runaways from a strip club. But comics are aimed at boys in the 8-15 demograpihc. Just look at comics as Preacher, Sandman or Fables with older readers – far… Read more »
Um, speaking of Preacher, a lot of British comics have much more nudity and sexual situations than US comics. Sexy naked people in art, even women, is not somehow immature.
I’m in my 20s and I can enjoy things that are stylized or include sexuality, Hack/Slash, manga, etc, lots of great stuff out there.
As for what a “real” super ninja like Elektra would be doing, that doesn’t sound as good.
In Preacher there is both nudity, partial nudity and sex – but for a purpose in the storytelling. Boyfriend and girlfriend are reunited after months believing the other was dead – yeah, sex followed. Women shows off their breast during Madri Gras, but only to underscore the differences between two vampires outlook at life.
Adds a bit of mystery to the girls
I know right!? they look badass!!
I like these on a totally different level that doesn’t have that much to do with straight maleness. They are just generally cool, which doesn’t require sexuality or anything. To me it’s not about full clothing being a more subtle form of sexiness. It’s about all the things characters had always had to offer us before we even were old enough to be interested in them sexually. These sketches remind me of the X-Men animated series. I was about ten or twelve at the time. I remember being really surprised by Storm. I wasn’t used to female characters being cool… Read more »
yes, there’s a problem with you: you (men in general) think everything is made for your penis, “My penis likes fully dressed women, so it´s approved”
I’m looking forward to the fully dressed Namor, Thing, Silver Surfer, Conan, Hulk….
(But I do like these designs a lot, and I always thought Power Girl’s name and boob window were both stupid.)
Actually all those characters (except the Surfer) have had full clothing at some point in their history.
So have a number of the women in comics. Wonder Woman had her white jumpsuit, Supergirl has had many costumes, etc. It is true that there’ve been more prudish redesigns of male costumes than female ones.
Now I’m feeling a bit guilty for making fun of Power Girl’s boob window. There are female cosplayers who love that costume.
So you can come up with a handful of male characters, including dipping outside of the genre, who are dressed the same way the female ones tend to be. All of whom have in-character reason for dressing like that (actually, it would probably make more sense if the Hulk didn’t wear as much as he did…).
At least two of which are most definitely NOT SEXY and are entirely inhuman, something that is never true of the women.
I don’t think you’re doing a very good job of showing how this is not a double standard.
Red Sonja’s chain mail bikini usually gets dragged into these discussions, so I thought Conan’s furry diaper was relevant, but I’ll happily leave Conan out.
Yes, there’s a lot of sexism in comics. It’s an adolescent genre. But if you’re playing fair, you have to acknowledge that characters like Namor have been nearly naked since they were created in the 1940s, that Robin bared his legs for decades, etc. Superhero costumes were inspired by circus costumes, which are either sexist or sexy, depending on the designer and the audience.
Red Sonja’s chain mail bikini and Conan’s loin cloth have no similarity.
Only one of them is supposed to be wearing armor.
Actually, they’re very similar–they’re adventuring costumes. Neither is what I would wear if I had their job. I wrote about them here: http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2013/01/chain-mail-bikinis-context-matters.html In her first costume, Red Sonja had less exposed flesh than Conan. In the bikini, they’re pretty much equal. And as I noted in the other case, if I had to fight in a chain mail bikini or a fur diaper, I would go with the mail bikini. Though I’d much rather have full-coverage, regardless of my sex, of course. But comic-book logic is not real-life logic, as anyone who likes the look of capes should know–capes… Read more »
Captain America and Aquaman wear chain mail; Batman and the Punisher do not. What’s significant is they’re all wearing adventuring suits. A superhero’s costume is more than its details.
Characters who don’t wear armor may or not be covered (although Batman does wear armor).
The same does not make sense for those that DO wear armor.
If you want to be realistic (and remember that this is a genre where a domino mask can hide a person’s identity and people choose to fight in capes), armor can be functional or decorative, and where it’s worn varies–compare Greek warriors, Roman gladiators, and Medieval knights. The point about a superhero costume is that it’s a costume, not that it’s realistic.
Namor’s speedo has scales. Does that make it practical?
That’s nice in principle… I’d have done a few differently (pants under skirt is just silly, either give her regular pants, or thick stockings and a skirt). Also it should be noted that Wonder Woman, Black Canary, and Zatanna have been depicted fully dressed on many occasions; for some readers that’s still Z’s most iconic outfit, and while Kingdom Come’s armoured WW doesn’t come up quite as often, I read it’s still a huge toy seller to this day.
Some women in the real world do wear pants under short skirts or dresses and it looks just fine. It’s more practical than thick stockings because even the thickest of stockings (which cost almost as much of a pair of pants anymore, by the way) would tear or provide little protection/warmth in the real world.
We don’t have to forgo fashion for practicality if we don’t want to :)
of course I know women do that IRL. That’s my point: no, it does *not* look just fine, it looks completely ridiculous. Stockings under skirt = ok. And providing protection is entirely irrelevant in Supergirl’s case… there are no pants in the world resistant enough for the sort of abuse she’d put them through, so either her powers protect it as was the canon in the 80s/90s, and stockings are ok, or they don’t and no pants would be safe either. Although my argument against pants-with-skirt might be moot if that’s a thing with current-day teenagers, since that seems to… Read more »
Pants under skirts may be silly in reality, but you do realize that Supergirl is a teenager who can fly?
Every panel with her being “Whew, just barely avoided a panty shot. To the reader. I guess those other people in the comic with her can see everything.” is kinda annoying.
I love Electra, Black Canary, and Psylocke here – beautiful work! Not loving the PG outfit because it kind of looks like a lab coat to me – but her attitude is pretty great, on the other hand, and the gloves. (Mad Scientist PG?)
Some look more heroic, some less. Zatanna looks like she’s on her way to a business meeting in 1874, for example. But Electra looks fine, and I think Powergirl looks *more* heroic. To me, anyway. But I was raised by a feminist. :)
Electra would look so much better and still be very respectfully covered if her outfit didn’t have sleeves.
Hmm. Zatanna looks quite a bit awkward. Like she shrunk or something.
I want Black Canary’s pants! Just. So. Awesome!
lol Me too, other than the purple. They’re kinda unisex.
The only one I don’t like here is Zatanna’s pants — Not a fan of “piano legs”, mostly. The outfit could be improved with just showing another three inches of boot.
Fully dressed Vampirella? Are you real?!
I love these costumes! They seem to say so much more about the character’s style, interests, culture, etc.
I love the idea. My only problem is Why are most of the costumes baggy? The male superheroes almost all have skin tight outfits. Why not across the board? Most of these designs are awesome though. I am gonna mark this page to see if my wife would like to cosplay any of these outfits. You notice no Batgirl because she’s always been fully dressed. Further proof the Batman family is the best set of heroes
I don’t mind the costumes from Zatanna down. But why must everything be so horribly unfashionable. There’s nothing wrong with covering up a bit but it doesn’t have to be so unfashionable. There’s also nothing wrong with showing skin. These women are very confident and powerful. If they want to wear as little clothing as possible, why not!?
Because “they” don’t want to, “they” are being drawn that way by male artists at the direction of male editors/publishers to cater to male fans.
It’s extremely ignorant to think that only men draw female heroes that way.
Fashion is in the eye of the beholder. With the exception of perhaps SuperGirl (and maybe Wonder Woman’s pants), I found these to be quite fashionable. But then again I’m a fan of anachronisms :)
I love some of the anachronistic elements to these costumes for sure! It’s more so the clashing pants on Wonder Woman and the poorly tailored suit of Zatanna! If it was tailored to fit her it would be amazing. But no one should wear their jacket at that length if they’re going for a fashionable look! ; ) (If tailored properly I would wear that in the real world!)
A woman who wants to wear as little clothing as possible is one thing.
Almost all of the women in your fiction happening to want to wear as little clothing as possible (while zero men think like that) is something else entirely.
which comics do you read where that scenario is true?
broadbrushing an entire genre is just false , yes there are many comic books in where the females are scantily clad ,there are also many male characters where this is stylisticly acheived ,but im sorry not all comics are done in DC or marvel style , and there are many comic books where the female hero’s arent wearing “battle bikinis”, dont make false statements.
Yes, that thing that has no resemblance to what I said sure is ridiculous.
Did you think I’d take your word for it? Even if I had so little idea of what I might have said, I can scroll up.
I love the looks of these. I may actually read comics if they dressed the women like this. A lot of these outfits could be adapted by fashion-loving fans into everyday wear as well.
don’t worry, you would stop shortly after. Changing the costumes wouldn’t make the writing any better. lets keep in mind we are only discussing “superhero” comics. There are hundreds of other well written, non-objectifying comics being published today. If you aren’t reading comics like Saga, Glory and Revival you are a part of the problem.
I think they look great and I think it is cool to focus on the character of a heroine instead of just her skin.
Bizarre…
Give the girls some biceps FGS! & – really- what is *wrong* with bare arms & bare legs?
The issue with bare arms and legs is that with the exceptions of Supergirl and Power-Girl, nobody up there is invulnerable. Granted, clothes don’t offer much in the way of protection but, the illusion of protection is still there.
I like these. Much more appealing than what you normally see. Thanks to the artist!
Honestly, being Greek, Wonder Woman should be wearing a toga, not a bustier and bikini. As for the rest of them, gotta say I’m liking them.
Chiton. Romans wore togas. And, later on, only Roman males. And a toga is the most impractical fighting garment, ever, it being over 7 yards of fabric, artfully draped around the body, with an absolute demand for the left-hand to hold it in place.
I love them!! Some of these re-designs actually make me want to look into the characters, to read their stories and find out who they are. I find them engaging and interesting and their poses and costumes reflect a depth of character that arouses my curiosity and catches my attention. That, of course, makes me want to make their costumes too, since I choose my cosplay based on how well I can relate to a particular character. Plus, they all look way more comfortable (and warmer!) than the costumes I’ve made so far, so I might actually be able to… Read more »
All of the characters up there have extremely intriguing stories. My favorite would have to be Psylocke. English born mutant Betsy Braddock loses her memory and is transformed into a kunoichi. The rest of her story is filled with suspense and intrigue as she tries to reassemble her past, memory by memory.
I’m sure many people think all of the characters have intriguing stories. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be such big-name characters. However, when I’m standing in a comic store, faced with thousands of covers and no connection to them, I have to look at the covers to give me some insight that makes one stand out above all the others. I certainly don’t have the time or money to read everything just to be “fair”. As it stands now, most covers don’t give me enough to justify investing my time or money into getting to know the characters. The cover… Read more »
I find it really sad that you wouldn’t want to look into a character just because of what they’re wearing. A lot of the characters up there have awesome stories and it’s so judgmental to think it’s not worth it to read about them based off of the superficial. It’s the equivalent of seeing a gorgeous girl and automatically assuming she’s stupid.
There’s a difference between making judgmental assumptions, and simply not being “hooked”. If you walk up to someone in a store and say “why are you looking at this book here and not that other one over there?” they won’t say “I assume the other book is terrible and badly written.” It could potentially be great and they aren’t disputing that, but the title, cover art, or theme just didn’t attract their interest. There are too many books in the world for reading at random to be a workable strategy. So, the feedback we are getting here is that women… Read more »
There is a difference between making a judgmental assumption and not being “hooked”. Thinking “I refuse to look into this character because of how she’s dressed” is not always the same as not being “hooked”. People assume books are bad or poorly written all the time based off of the cover. Sure, maybe the synopsis didn’t grab them. Or maybe they didn’t even read the synopsis because they made the judgment that the story is not for them because Elektra has a lot of skin showing. I am a woman. I read comic books. A female character dressed in jeans… Read more »
Actually, I don’t read any comic with Wolverine on the cover.
Because of his costume? Sad.
The issue is not what the clothes say about the character, but what they say about the AUTHOR. A female character can be both strong and sexy. She can wear revealing clothing and not be a lesser person because of it. And it is possible to write “femme fatales” who are actually interesting, compelling characters and not just two-dimensional, oversexualized male fantasies. These are absolutely true, and I would never deny them. However, when I pick up a comic book and I see a horrifically contorted blow-up doll dressed in fishnets and electrical tape on the cover, and I flip… Read more »
It honestly seems like your issue is more to do with the anatomy and how a woman is posed. I never spoke to that because I have been addressing the clothing as a stand alone do to the fact that this is what the article is about. Everyone seems to be imposing those issues onto my arguments and making assumptions about my opinions on them based on my feelings about clothing and that wildly unfair. I feel like there are a lot of very strong, empowering female characters that wear skin tight or bathing suit style clothing: Rogue, Storm, Psylocke,… Read more »
That is valid, but to be honest, I’ve never really found it to be a meaningful distinction. Where goeth ridiculous anatomy, so followeth ridiculous clothes. And vice versa. Artists and writers who objectify women in one way are almost certain to objectify them in other ways as well. (of course, this does not apply to artists/writers who take over characters and are required to maintain the pre-existing ridiculous costumes, so long as they are able to transcend the other problematic aspects of those characters). Also, though I understand that the costumes don’t bother YOU, personally (which is a stance you… Read more »
I’m not denying or dodging anything. Many other people are assuming my positions on other issues based on my positions on clothing and are therefore getting into a one sided debate over nothing. I never said comics are not sexist. And yes, a costume like Vampirella’s and Elektra’s can go too far in some depictions and there is a line there that I draw as well. No, I don’t get outright offended but I can appreciate someone who would. I never once said that I didn’t think there was an issue with sexism in comics. There is certain art that… Read more »
You’re just not listening to the objections and you’re too busy defending being a girl who likes to objectify women. I find your comments really sad and I have no interest in furthering any discussion with you.
I am listening. And I am respecting what people are saying. Unfortunately people are making assumptions on what my opinions are on body posing and anatomy based off of my opinions on clothing. It seems that there are a few people here who are not listening to what I have to say and instead want to refute everything based off assumptions. I do not like to objectify women. It’s a very base accusation to make. One that’s insulting but groundless. My comments have only ever been about clothing and nothing more. It’s sad that an opposing opinion has to automatically… Read more »
Wow, looks like you’re the one not listening. If you’ve read any of the posts you’d never say that her comments objectify women. What I get from it is almost entirely the opposite. It’s people like you that make me stay away from debates in comment sections. When you don’t understand an argument you turn to insults. It seems like you don’t have the intellect to further a discussion with anyone. My condolences.
I actually like some of these more than their actual character designs. They look comfortable and more functional. The whole fighting in skin tight panties with everything popping out doesn’t appeal to me at all. It’s one of the things that makes comics less appealing to me.
Supergirl looks more like Dr. Strange’s Apprentice like that so, I would just make some alterations there. I like Elektra’s new look. Psylocke’s outfit should take more cues from Elektra’s. And Zatanna’s outfit wasn’t in need of a change to begin with. She is supposed to look that way. Her outfit was designed to make her look like a Magician’s Assistant.
Zatana has never been a magician’s assistant, she has always been a magician. The fact that you made this mistake is I think evidence of how poor her previous costume actually was.
I would have gone with a different colour of leggings for WW and a longer jacket for Canary.
I understand the concept of “fully dressed’ heroines but shouldn’t the outfits actually fit? Why are they so baggy and ill-fitting? Step your game up!
I think he’s trying to emphasize that fully dressed isn’t an excuse for skin tight clothes.
They aren’t baggy or ill-fitting; that’s how normal clothes look on women, at least those who do not go about daily wearing skin-tight apparel.
As a Male who wears suits to his daily job, my clothes fit far better than most of theirs. If you feel that way, than perhaps you should invest in a good tailor.
Men’s clothes usually are made to fit better. Sizing of pants, for instance, is based on a man’s actual measurements. On the other hand, clothing sizes for women are typically just assigned arbitrary numbers.
I don’t see any baggy clothes there at all. Just not skin-tight. They look like they fit just as well as what most people would wear, including police officers.
This is kinda ignoring all the form fitting outfits that male superheroes wear.
But they aren’t the police, they’re superheroes. ALL superheroes wear skin tight outfits that show off their bodies, muscles and curves. Superheroes are supposed to be the ultimate in everything including sex. They are sex symbols. Some of the original outfits for some of the women are highly impractical but so are these. How do you fight crime in slacks? You don’t that’s how.
… why can’t you fight crime in slacks?
Well, for the most part they work, Black Canary’s trousers might be a mistake though, I think she’d rather have her trouser legs inside her boots because those look like they could just get caught on something if she’s running or fighting, or even make her trip over herself, and that’d just be embarrassing!
If they get caught on something, they rip, and that’s all right. And I doubt she’s any more likely to trip on her pants than she is to go sprawling due to the stiletto boots that are part of her official costume. So I think the pants are fine.
Didn’t she have flat soled boots during Simone’s Birds of Prey run? High heels are a silly notion for anyone with an active lifestyle.
Unless they have super-balance, or are just incredibly talented.
How do you fight crime with your double D’s flying all over the damn place? I’m gonna tell you right now: you don’t. You smack yourself in the face with one, and you lose.
Yeah, because our men in arms suck at fighting so much in their baggy pants, combat boot, and all that gear. Surely super heros couldn’t do it. Or ya know, all of the military forces that fought in armor or generations throughout history.
Women and men don’t HAVE to be sex symbols just because they’re comic book heroes. Neither do men.
Still nice to look at.
i’m not sure how comparable our fighting forces are to superhumans who can fly, run fast, and maybe invulnerable.
I agree with you for almost all of them with the exception of Zatanna. Her pants seem to go past her heels, Maybe she should have made the cut an inch higher? Other than that, I agree.
Lady cop uniforms are about the least-flattering items of clothing on Earth.
I just don’t understand the baggy shoes. It seems like they’d be an impediment.
As opposed to the stilettos the original figures would be wearing, you mean?
Or, you know, along with.
I understand the project, the process, and the emphasis, I just don’t think that ill fitted clothes make practical sense on any superhero, male or female. In a fight something could get caught or someone could judo throw the hero or any number of unsavory things could happen. I like the creativity behind the design and the experimentation, but I think that the ultimate solution exists balanced between form, function, and class, regardless of the gender…
Because tight fitting outfits do NOT work when you are fighting. With the exception of spandex, the tighter the outfit, the more difficult it is properly move. Spandex is a thin material that allows for someone to move around either, but it offers no protection whatsoever. However, if you’re wearing protective material like armor, or leather or some kind of kevlar or at the very least a thicker fabric you want it to be loose, thus allow for you have a bit more movement. Its why martial art uniforms are baggy and not formfitting.
kevlar armor is less effective if worn loosely. I would also like to point out that not all movement is equal. The primary type of action that will be preformed should determine what a hero wears.
It is probably worth pointing out that for someone like Batman or Black Canary things like bullets or environmental conditions are problems to be taken into consideration when choosing material, but people like Superman or Wonder Woman don’t have to think like that. That having been said, Big Barda doesn’t really have to worry about those things either, and her costume is pretty much head to toe and I’ve always thought it worked pretty well, so a female hero can do the fully clothed look and pull it off. I don’t think it should be an across the board rule,… Read more »
I think you’re getting too hung up on visual semantics. This particular artist didn’t do a very good job of fitting certain points, he’s certainly no tailor. The only places I see this “bagginess” is in the leggings and shoes, except Zatanna’s top. It would make sense that wearing what she is wearing up top, though, that she may need some flexibility lest she just rip her outfit apart fighting in it. The leggings being baggy make total sense to me; wearing tights or too-tight legging can *seriously* restrict your motion as a human, whereas buying leggings one size up,… Read more »
baggy clothes make it easier to be grappled. We see athletes everyday wear “tight” clothing without having their movement restricted, compression wear promotes circulation allowing muscles to work more efficiently.
I don’t know where you get your information. Clothing as tight as women too often wear does not promote circulation. It does the opposite, restricting circulation and breathing. I have on more than one occasion had to treat women who’ve passed out due to their clothing being too tight.
A cocktail dress isn’t the same as athletic compression wear.
Too tight is too tight, no matter what.
I agree with you, wonder woman and black canary look like they are going skiing. The boots and pant legs are way too wide. Zatanna’s pants look like they are three sizes too big for her too. “Clothed” doesn’t mean that they have to look ‘butch’. That being said, this is a good effort and I support the intent.
LOVING IT.
That’s all I have to say. Although I don’t know about Vampirella… not in the “your-whole-thing-is-the-boob-showing”, but maybe because people in Eastern Europe uses different clothing, me thinks. Just an observation.
All in all, Black Canary and Wonderwoman are my faves. Seeing Power Girl like that is surely going to make someone have a seizure.
And I’m ok with it. :)
Vampirella isn’t supposed to be Eastern European though. She is Cleopatra in one telling.
She’s from another planet in her origin tale. So really she could adopt any style she wanted. I like the depiction here a lot!
It’s practical for winter ^_-
Reminds me of a few illos I saw last year showing what male heroes would look like if artists posed them the same way they do female heroes… more reasons why the genre has always been dominated by young male readers.
But, would publishers like DC ever consider such moves?
This was one artist’s crack at such a design ethic… and KUDOS to him! I’d be interesting to see what other artists come up with and whether such a move could lead toward greater involvement in mainstream comics by female fans and creators. Heck, it’s 2013, maybe the time has come to view superheroines as something more than pinup dolls.
It’s reminiscent but I would argue that it’s not the same issue. I think it’s stupid how some women are posed but I don’t have the same issue with what women in comic books wear.
There are many costumes that, while skin tight, are fully clothing the heroine. The same can be said about Superman or Cyclops though.
You can argue that skin tight uniforms are more practical for the kind of battling superheroes do.
On the other hand, the posing…..that’s just silly. You should always face your opponent head on. Not bum first.
I don’t like these designs. The artist is definitely really skilled, I like the style and such but I don’t like most of the clothing choices. I certainly advocate for fully dressed superheroines but to me a lot of these designs are either impractical, less than heroic or just really clash. Parts of them work. Like the Wonder Woman is the worst offender. For Powergirl I’d argue the pants need to be either a lighter blue or just white. Psylocke, Elektra and Zatanna are the best ones here. Though for Zatanna I don’t like how loose the pants are which… Read more »
I agree. But I would say that honestly, from a functional standpoint, superheroes (male or female) should wear skin tight or close to skin tight clothing. Anything that will easily snag or be grabbed is a horrible idea if you’re a super charged do-gooder. The Incredibles got it right. Capes are dangerous. But so are baggy pants. I’d hate to see Wonder Woman or SuperGirl get mowed down because all there excess material got stuck on a branch. It would be very sad. And extremely anti-climatic.
making the clothes baggy hides muscles and physical prowness. that actually leaves more room to question
Skin-tight, barely-there clothing does not equal automatically femininity. These clothes do just fine evoking feminine qualities and there is no doubt about these characters sex here.
I would throw out there that skin-tight clothing actually leaves more room to question if the character achieved the super hero status on her own or via a sequence of circumstances where “the poor little girl” had sexual appeal on her side, to paraphrase what you said. Do you think HitGirl would appear more intimidating in tight clothing, for example?
That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Who reads a comic book and says “Oh y’know I bet Wonder Woman is only a superhero because some guy gave her those powers. Y’know, because she wears that outfit”
HitGirl wouldn’t be more intimidating if she was wearing a skin tight outfit. Likewise, she’s also not more intimidating without.
Wonder Women is my girl from way back. I am not convinced about the color of her slacks, but I love the overall look.
Zatanna, Vampirella, Psylocke, and Elektra are Hawt!!
Amazing job! There’s also this one, which is women in fantasy wearing reasonable armour, and also awesome: http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/
I think we should make a distinction between “fully dressed” and “entirely covered.” They are not the same thing.
I never thought turning comic heroines into conservative, fully dressed females would be this sexy. What about the guys?
Zatanna should have a word with her tailor. Those trousers are far too long, trailing on the ground like that. Little shorter, little closer to the leg. Otherwise, these are awesome.
a couple of these look ok (psylocke and elektra) but most of them just look dumb!
Even the male costumes are skin tight spandex. So why make these so frumpy?
While they might all be very cute, demographic numbers show that young men and boys buy more comics when the cover shows a heroin with big boobs and lots of cleavage. Yes yes, we all want to believe it isn’t true, but Victoria secret and sports illustrated haven’t moved on to selling magazines with size 22 women yet or much less girls in one piece bathing suits covering everything. Again not knocking this, I’d love for it to be true, but it just doesn’t sell. The truth sucks.
Thanks for this. I love admiring sexy ladies as much as the next person, but the constant nakedness of pretty much every female superhero out there can get not only tedious, but a bit insulting.
i like most of the designs… with Zatanna being my fav…but Vampirella doesn’t do it for me…
Honestly, that’s taking out half the fun of hero comic books :P
PURE AWESOMENESS!!!
Is it just me, or does Wonder Woman’s pants/leggings look odd? Everybody else looks at least fine to me, and her upper body and boots look great, just the pants just don’t seem to work with the rest of the outfit.
Has no one yet brought up that Psylocke already currently HAS a new costume that pretty much shows only her face? Same with Black Canary
And why in the world would you put brown slacks on Wonder Woman? I think that next time they should have female (or gay lol) cartoonists draw fully clothe heroines. Now I understand why male cartoonist draw them semi-naked. They don’t have the fashion sense to draw them fully clothed xD
I like wonder woman’s redesign well enough, but those pants completely blow her aesthetic. The color. The sag. the fit. the lack of additional armor. no thank you.